Hey y’all, I’ve been thinking about this for a while and I was wondering if there was any advice here, perhaps people who have been through something similar.
I’ve been DMing 5e for a while; I started maybe 7 or 8 years ago in college. I ran LMoP for my roommates to begin, and I had a campaign that lasted two semesters for a different group of friends. That second one was super homebrewed, and hugely successful in that it seemed like everyone had fun. But throughout that campaign I realized there were a lot of things in my game I wasn’t satisfied with, especially in regards to combat and the “difficulty” of the game. PCs blew my encounters out of the water and took long rests whenever they felt like, and I wanted there to be stakes, dilemmas, etc. That stuff has been pretty widely discussed online and I have learned a lot since then.
Since then I’ve only had one group stay together for a reasonably successful campaign, and I thought I could do more or less the same as I had done before, but better. I had one player from the previous campaign as well, which I thought would be a boon. He’s my best friend and I love the guy, but I realize now he just doesn’t like the way I have evolved my DMing. He doesn’t like how there’s not always time to take a long rest or fighting without all his resources, he doesn’t like encounters more complex than running into the fray to swing swords and cast spells, and he doesn’t like that the characters might die now. He’s been pretty open about this, and he’s told me that in his opinion, the way the game should go is the players face some obstacles but they overcome them, and it’s unsatisfying if they don’t, and character death is unsatisfying and unfair, and imo if I read between the lines he basically wants to be able to run his warlock into an Annis Hag and know that he will come out the other side alright.
To be clear, this isn’t a bash-my-friend post or a problem-player post, I appreciate his honesty and how he knows what he wants from the game. The problem is I am having a lot of fun with the things I’ve learned, and I don’t wanna go back in the playhouse. So the question is how do I handle this and AITA? Would I look for a new group, or is that me thinking the grass is greener with folks I don’t know very well? I don’t want to run a game that my friend will get tilted in, but I am so bored with running simple encounters that get exploded by a party that gets a long rest between every fight. Help please.
I might be able to shed some light here. See, I generally DM in a way that generally appeals to players like your friend. I’m going to try and explain my reasoning and it might help you understand what he’s looking for.
In my games, the PCs generally succeed in their broad aims. We play to find out, not if they can, but how they do it, and what does it cost them. Character death is rare, and if I can help it, it’s never due to a single missed roll. Players get the opportunity to adjust their plans, sneak out when they are obviously outmatched, and are able to make miraculous escapes in the nick of time. When things go really wrong, are knocked unconscious and left for dead, or are captured. (If you are wondering how to run this, look at fate points in wfrp 2e, the idea is you give them a negative consequence and take them out of the fight instead of killing them outright).
This does not mean characters never die. A campaign that doesn’t end without a pc sacrificing themselves for the greater good is boring, but this makes it a conscious choice of the player.
This does not mean the PCs can just fail their way to success. They get plenty of opportunity to figure out a strategy that gives them the upper hand, to out-talk, out-plan, out-number or out-think foes too powerful to take on head on. But if they are dead set on doing it the stupid way, and I am satisfied I have provided enough information telegraphing the way it will end, then yeah, TPK away.
Thanks for this, I’m interested in your take on what you do to make your games interesting for you as a DM. My issue isn’t so much that I can’t run a game my friend enjoys, it’s that I don’t really enjoy it because I feel like I know exactly what’s going to happen. I enjoy DMing with more complex and difficult encounters because I get unexpected situations out of it.
It’s interesting that you mention Fate because I’ve actually run it before at a retreat, and that same friend recommended Fate as a more beginner friendly, easier to set-up TTRPG. And when I ran it I thought of him because the whole system seems to almost guarantee the players’ success, and the drama is in the “complications” or whatever the jargon for Fate is. D&D by comparison doesn’t seem to lend itself to that success-but-at-a-cost.
It’s interesting that you mention Fate
I like FATE, but in this particular instance I was referring to the fate point system in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2. It’s a more traditional system than FATE.
What I like about it is that it’s pretty brutal, but it has mechanisms like this to give the players more say about what happens to their characters. Often it’s a bit of a Sophie’s choice situation but agency is agency.I don’t really enjoy it because I feel like I know exactly what’s going to happen. I enjoy DMing with more complex and difficult encounters because I get unexpected situations out of it.
What I try to do is prepare situations not outcomes.
To take an example from my last session, the players are looking for evidence that a noble is secretly a vampire and is involved in a cult. He owns a town house in the city and evidence of his involvement is likely there. They can sneak in at night, try to get an invitation to a social gathering there, pose as a delivery man, whatever. Also one of the servants might know something. They can follow him home and intimidate him or kidnap his pet or whatever.
I prep just enough of the house and retainers to be able to fill in the blanks on the fly. I know my players, so I know they are probably going to try and gain entrance to a social function. They love upscale parties. So I prep that route a bit more including a few of the invitees they can either try and pressure out of an invitation or run into at the function.
They take the party bait (of course) but to my surprise, they decide to ambush the band playing at the event and take their place. But that’s ok, I have prepped the mansion, the servants and the party in enough detail to adapt. A few hilariously botched play instrument rolls later a few sneaky party members peel off to gain entrance to the upper floor while the others run interference downstairs.
D&D by comparison doesn’t seem to lend itself to that success-but-at-a-cost.
It supports many play styles, but in the end you need all to be on the same page. If you and the rest of the table want to play a game that focuses on tactical combat and one person doesn’t, you’re going to have to talk about it and figure something out.
The problem, as I read it, is that it’s only 1 player feeling this way. The rest of the table seems to enjoy themselves. Or, that’s my take on it, since they don’t really get mentioned.
I think the rest of the table enjoyed themselves, but I do think part of it is that they weren’t as invested as the player in question. They would show up to the session, put themselves in danger, and don’t really seem to get the same anxiety about their character dying because I don’t think they would really care that much.
Frankly I think that amplifies the issue because we only have one player that might want to spend time on a plan to try to guarantee success and the rest of the party is more “fuck it we ball” types. Furthermore the anxious player was the most frontliner of them all so the party’s lack of planning is most likely to bite him in the ass out of any of them.
For me it’s a question of balance.
Most smaller encounters are easy for my PCs, but major encounters should be tough, have a risk of PCs dying and also have the rewards be epic.
This is all just my opinion though, but seems my group likes it.
Yeah, absolutely. I don’t want to be the DM where everything is a deadly encounter.
Maybe I could satisfy myself by upping the difficulty, but changing the consequences? Like the typical consequences to losing an encounter would be death, hostages taken, etc. But maybe it would be a good compromise to have encounters where the failure condition isn’t death. I’m thinking about Shaolin Showdown all of the sudden…
Other consequences could include death of NPCs, destruction of nature or some landmark that the characters care about (e.g. an ancient temple), loss of possessions/money, or permanent scars and injuries which can’t be fully healed except with the most potent magic.
Are there any rules for injuries like that anywhere?
I don’t have any specific resource for you, but I think xp to lvl 3 mentioned it in some of his favourite homebrew videos. If you search his videos for “injuries” you get a few hits.
Yeah, if you can come up with a consequence that does not involve the death of the PCs that would be a nice variation. Maybe they get banished to another world. Maybe the bad guy makes them jump through time.
Adjusting the game to fit your table is the hardest challenge of all unfortunately. There are some players who don’t fit certain tables and DM styles and it’s your job to either make it work or tell them to find another table.
I think in your case you can make it work, but you’ve got a lot of work to do since you’re trying to accommodate a carebear happy fun time player at a table you want to run more and more as “hardcore-lite” experience.
I think two ideas I would have for you are to present your hardcore challenges as optional / non lethal challenges in a arena type colosseum. This lets you design difficult encounters but sandboxes them from consequences. If you want there to be consequences you’re going to make the carebear sad.
Another option is to come up with a McGuffin for the carebear that acts as protection for their character. E.g they fail there death saves and they turn into a rampaging monster due to some story reason. Lots of bad things happen to the party, but carebear wakes up the next day fine. You can use this to change the dynamic of “carebear” go frontline while we hit badguy. The big problem here is protecting the carebear leads to possible resentment from the other players so doing something like this is dangerous overall, but it can work depending on your players and how you do it.
For a TLDR I think you want to run more hard core games and your “carebear” player no longer fits at the table you want to run. In short you have to accommodate the “carebear”, change their mindset, or create a table of people ok with a more hardcore game.
You said in another comment that you enjoy DMing a game that has unpredictable results for the DM as well. A lot of good advice has already been given, but might I suggest giving your players more agency that you’d most likely see falling into the realm of the DM usually, so they create unexpected events for you as well?
Say you have the character of your friend destroy said Annis Hag, but blast! she had a curse prepared to fall upon anyone who would dare defy her to the point of death. Now instead of throwing your idea of a punishing burden on the player, you could instead go: “You can feel an evil magic engulfing your very being. It muddles your senses and try as you might, you are incapable of escaping its grasp. As it burns itself into your very bones and soul, you feel one of your abilities weaken. Which ability is affected?”
That way the player retains agency, can pick the least punishing option (in their opinion), have consequences but it doesn’t feel like they just got punished for doing well or making a choice just as much as you simply deciding “That’s how it is now. Enjoy!”. Could also add an element of chance and put it down to a roll of the dice, but that might again feel too arbitrarily punishing to that character.
The curse then mightn’t just have that main effect, mind you. But at least the worst one is more down to what the character feels and fears rather than what the DM wants to dish out. It will also give you something to ponder and think about in how to work with whatever the player chose or came up with. You could let them describe how the curse alters their appearance, do they suddenly have a mark on their skin? If so where, what size, shape and color? Now you have a PC with an odd mark of their own imagination and you can build on that. Or the player might come up with horns sprouting from their head, etc. Using this, you can have NPCs react to these changes and really play into them.
Player Agency might help alleviate the feeling of it being a punishing campaign, by giving them some room to breathe in all the pressure and stress.
This seems like a neat idea, although I worry that if it’s not executed right it seems like I’m just making up weird stuff to make the game harder. As it stands, I stick to the RAW pretty closely so that I feel like I’m being reasonably fair. I tend to doubt myself a lot when I homebrew mechanics that work against the player.
I think I mentioned the word in the post but didn’t elaborate: dilemmas. It seems like this is a big part of what you’re suggesting: letting the players take part in deciding what negative consequences they suffer where there is no answer that is strictly positive for the players. I do feel like I have failed to present my dilemmas in a way that gets perceived as fair, it just seems like the players assumed that there must be time to loot the vault and escape from the demon without consequence, when I was trying to make it clear that they can either get away quickly, or loot the vault and have a powerful enemy catch up to them.
And to be honest that’s kind of been the most fun I’ve had is when I offer a choice between safety without maximum reward, or taking a risk that requires a clever solution to escape from. I feel like I telegraph the danger but I can’t overcome this underlying assumption that I’m not actually going to follow through on the threat.
Yeah, alright. Can you provide an example of how you present the choice during a session? Maybe it’s really as simple as being far more on the nose with how you say it?
I’ve found my players often really do not grasp implied information and it just leads nowhere. But I get the feeling you’re already really clear with how you approach it.
I’m a newer DM who started a campaign 3 years ago during COVID with my brothers. Take my advice with a grain of salt because it may be different from others. My campaign is based around a group of characters that go from start to finish. My campaign revolves around some star wars fanfic I wrote back when I was too poor for college classes, yet knew my writing needed work. Thus, as a DM, I’m the one unwilling to allow player character death.
I am extremely lucky to have very mature players that mostly don’t try to cheese the game. I usually give them a time limit for a mission to be completed, either explicitly from the quest giver, or implicitly where “bad things” will start to happen the longer time goes on and the mission isn’t completed.
Could my players take more long rests? Absolutely, but that could cause them to fail that quest. Could my players take a long rest in the middle of the day right after waking up that morning? Absolutely, but they better have a plan for what they are going to be doing that night when all the shops are closed, it’s dark, and NPCs want to be left alone. And besides, it’s tough to fall asleep once your circadian rhythm is off… It would be a shame if characters needed to start rolling constitution checks to see if they can fall asleep to get that long rest for the next couple of days, and imposing exhaustion levels for not getting a long rest if it goes on long enough…
You’re NTA, but your friend is also NTA in my opinion. There is a lot of communication that needs to happen here and they also need to be able to trust that you’re not “trying to kill them”. You, as the DM are trying to tell their story in such a way that they feel epic, yet balance that by in-game consequences. It might be a good idea to try and sprinkle in some consequences for constantly resting, like the insomnia/circadian rhythm mentioned above, or maybe an ambush from bad guys that figure out the heroes location and prevent a long rest from happening. Forcing them to flee and hide after the ambush, wasting the rest of the day, might help them get moving. Those ambushes should be scary enough that they would go to great lengths to avoid a repeat.
And one final thought is to possibly think of your campaign like a movie. Yes, you’re telling their story, but you’re not telling every moment of their story. You’re not forcing their characters to stop for 3 meals a day, go to the bathroom, and occasionally wash their clothes and take baths. No, you’re hitting the important parts of the story, and filling the gaps with downtime where they can fabricate things, work “jobs”, etc,.
I hope something I’ve rambled about helps you out!
It kind of sounds like your friend won’t enjoy the kind of D&D you like to run, and that’s okay. You are allowed to enjoy running a challenging campaign with metered resources and meaningful stakes, and he is allowed to enjoy playing a shining hero that doesn’t worry about restraints and desperate measures. Both of those games are perfectly fine as long as everyone is having a good time.
